As the host of "Innovators Unleashed," I constantly seek insights that challenge and enlighten our perspectives on leadership and management. My recent dialogue with Kimberly Williams, an esteemed HR expert, was a profound journey into the heart of human resources and workplace dynamics.

Kimberly debunked common HR misconceptions, notably the notion that HR isn't on employees' side. She candidly admitted HR's reputation for siding with company interests over employees is often well-founded. This stems from the legal framework governing labor laws, incentivizing protection of higher-ups over lower-level employees, a clear disparity in treatment that Kimberly illustrated with real-world examples.

Our conversation delved deeper into how employees can effectively address workplace issues. Kimberly's advice was eye-opening: leveraging high-profile legal cases to encourage HR action, meticulously documenting incidents, and understanding company policies as a means of holding organizations accountable. These strategies empower employees to navigate the complex dynamics of workplace grievances.

Kimberly also highlighted ongoing legislative efforts aimed at creating safer, more equitable workplaces. The proposed Workplace Psychological Safety Act, testimonies of medical professionals on workplace-induced trauma, and the increasing accountability of companies through public platforms and legal actions paint an optimistic picture for the future of workplace culture.

This episode was a stark reminder of the evolving landscape of HR and workplace dynamics. It's not just about understanding the current state but actively participating in shaping a more equitable future.

Clinton Henry: So Kim, I'm so excited to be talking to you today. Now typically, I am a little nervous to be talking one on one with HR, but that is not the case today. So let's start with that. What are some common misconceptions about HR?

Kimberly Williams: That we are not on your side, that we are there to protect the company, to protect management, that we are actively out to hurt you, and that we can't be trusted.

Clinton Henry: I've heard all those things, so please edify me. Why is that?

Kimberly Williams: Well, unfortunately, it's a bad reputation that is actually well earned. That's not always a popular thing for someone who works in HR to say, but I think you just got legions of people who've had these negative experiences. And there's actually a couple of reasons for it. I mean one, all the labor laws are written this way. HR is trained to behave in a way that protects the company from liability. And so that does shape a lot of decisions. And you'll see it play out in disparate treatment like if the janitor breaks the rules, fired on the spot. If an executive breaks the rule, executive coaching. And part of the reason for that is because people won't sue over a janitor for large amounts of money, but they will sue a CEO for significant sums. So the system incentivizes, everyone working within that company to protect that really bad actor, even if something serious has happened. HR also deals with a lot of retaliation. So even folks that really do think that this is wrong and try and speak out against it in a lot of private conversations, they talk about a lot of blowback because they report up to these individuals, and if they're mean to others, a lot of times they're mean to HR.

Clinton Henry: Oh wow. So what do I do if I have gone to HR for the problem and they don't help me?

Kimberly Williams: Yeah. So there's two ways. And it can be hard to know like if you happen to have that HR person who wants to help and is just struggling because they're on the wrong side of the power dynamic, or they're a true believer and is like, I don't care. I love the boss and the boss loves me. But either way, I think that there's ways to incentivize them and to bolster that back door conversation. So like on LinkedIn this morning, I just posted about another multi-million dollar claim that a jury awarded this massive sum for race discrimination, sexual harassment. I actually have a Google alert every day in the US to trigger me and alert me to news that is going on around these cases. And they're literally every day where we're seeing jury awards of 366 million for one case in Texas for one woman, race harassment, racial discrimination, class action suit against Goldman Sachs settled for $200 million. So sometimes just feeding information like that to HR makes it easier for them to sell up, to say this could destroy us and it will likely go public. And you're going to pay way more by not changing behavior.

Clinton Henry: So what are some common mistakes that companies make when dealing with workplace abuses, and how they think is maybe the right way to handle them?

Kimberly Williams: They're not managing their own fear. I've seen a lot of cases where people just freak out and they get scared of a complaint. They get scared of being held accountable. They get scared of having to take action. And so they punch down at the complainant. They blame the victim. They gaslight the victim. They ignore the victim hoping that they'll just go away. And for many years that's worked for them because you had a system that really didn't support them. A lot of times their peers around them will freak out and "mob them." And so distance themselves from them, try not to connect with them, socially isolate them in a way that feels terrible and furthers their harm. And in a lot of cases, people do. The default is to go look for another job. But we're seeing a real change, almost like a tipping point where people are saying no, particularly Gen Z. They're like, absolutely no. I'm going to post you on TikTok for 8 million people. They're not putting up with it anymore.

Clinton Henry: So what advice would you give someone who's experiencing abuse? Is it just to open a TikTok account and document it there, or maybe get some action or what's the approach?

Kimberly Williams: if you have cats or something yeah, maybe. But for me, I'm 52. I don't even know how to open a TikTok account. I have to get my daughter to help me. But maybe if you're not TikTok famous, some other general good advice is to start a blog, just a very straightforward, hey, this happened to me on November 13th at 9:10 a.m.. This was a conversation. This is what was said. These who the witnesses were, and start tracking all that information. And then look at your handbook, because nobody ever reads this document. But in a lot of jurisdictions, these aren't just the rules for you. It's the rules for your company. If they have like a bullying policy in place, an EO policy and they should have a policy in place and they should be outlining their investigative process and what they'll do to respond. And if they don't do that, that can actually be a breach of contract. And in some jurisdictions, there's liability just on that alone. But anybody who can present to HR in a very calm, emotionally flat way that says, here are the facts, here's the policy that this violates or the law that this violates and this is impacting my ability to do my job, that is a golden ticket right there. Like you won't see the response, but they're going to pay attention to that response. Because what you're saying is, I present this information well, this is now discoverable. You can be held liable for ignoring me when I engage in this protected activity. And I will present well. My words will present well outside this company. If the media gets this, if a jury gets this, so they will weigh their response based on factors like this. And so it's really helpful. And if you're in too much of an emotional place, ask ChatGPT to drive your point and use that as a starting point. But how you show up is so powerful, and they're not going to teach you that. It's not best interest.

Clinton Henry: Nobody's coaching on that. Now you and I were speaking prior to kicking off about some work that you're doing currently around legislation to maybe change the way that legislation, basically the way that states view some of these acts. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you're doing now with several states?

Kimberly Williams: No, absolutely. And being in DC now, you get to partner with all these wonderful organizations that are out there really trying to change things. And we're seeing a lot of major shifts happen from whistleblowers of America to workplace fairness to all these other groups that are starting to link a lot of information together. And some of this is showing up in other places, like Massachusetts. On October 10th, they had about 500 people testify before the House Senate in support of a bill called the Workplace Psychological Safety Act. And this is just saying, you can't be mean, you can't hurt people. And it was fascinating how many medical doctors showed up to testify, saying that you can actually see scars on the brain from workplace trauma, that the American Psychological Association in 2022 redefined PTSD to include the work site. Because when your job's in danger, your whole life can feel like it's in danger. It's a very big deal. It's how you pay your bills, where your kids go to school. All these things are kind of attached to it. And then there was just countless testimony of all these people who had their lives destroyed, whose families fell apart, who have PTSD. They have all of these health issues that are tied to these traumatic events at work so the turnout was very encouraging. They won't make a decision until February. There's like a similar bill that's going through the Senate there Rhode Island. This act has already passed the Senate so next year they'll be looking at hopefully passing it in the House. And then one of these will go to governors for signature. And New York City is also awaiting a bill number right now that will also introduce this.

Clinton Henry: So can you talk about the before and after of what this is? So as we sit now in order to show the meanness has to be tied to a bias of some sort. Like they're being mean to me because they don't like my race or whatever, or my religion or my disability. And now that's going to be no longer the case. Is that a fair summary?

Kimberly Williams: That's a very good summary. Right now, there's nothing unlawful about being cruel at work and what's even worse is right now we have this discrimination standard which requires you to prove intent. So sometimes people are dumb enough to put an email in writing saying, I hate you because you're X or something, but most of the time that doesn't happen. They can be very cruel. They can be very dismissive. They can demote you, they can take away key projects. They can isolate you to impair your ability to do your job and the underlying motive could be because of protected characteristics. But as long as you're having to prove that, you're having to be a mind reader, and that's like an impossible standard. So they're looking at ways to try and overcome that, to make a meaningful difference where that people are actually just treated okay, and that they don't have to prove that to get help.

Clinton Henry: Wow. Yeah. It's stunning to think that that's the current state of affairs, even though maybe it doesn't feel like that. Right? That there is actually that massive burden of proof on the employee or the victim to show that, yes, not only was I abused, but here's why I was from the inner most parts of this individual's mind like that's seems impossible. It's stunning. So taking all that into account and we talked about the state of where things are at, are there any things that you're hopeful about around the future of work? What makes you get excited about the world we're walking into, or is it all doom and gloom?

Kimberly Williams: No, it's definitely not. I mean, it has been for a lot of people. I mean, this is something that has affected nearly 50 million workers in the United States where they look at these climate surveys and who's endured this kind of abuse and these are significant numbers. But I see great hope because I think if this bill passes in one state, I think you'll very quickly see it pass in a number of other states, particularly with an election year next year. I think plaintiff attorneys are getting far more organized, politically engaged. They're working together in ways that are really empowering employees. And that's always been a significant difference because it's a lot more big law protecting employers and a lot of smaller shops that are protecting employees. And so now that they're coming together. I think there's a lot of power in that and they're sharing more information. The Staggering Jury Awards is just really incredible. And to me, that becomes a powerful point of leverage for any employee or even HR professionals who are trying to get their boss to do better things like, do you want this lawsuit? Yes or no? Like, let's do these things that fix it, and then even shareholders now, they're really going after boards when they know that a CEO has been abusing people and they look the other way because it's impacting their bottom line. If that story goes public, that reputational damage comes at a real cost to the shareholders. And now they're taking actions against companies. So the incentives are going up tremendously. And there used to be this long standing fear of employees to call folks out. But that's gone like beyond TikTok. Even on LinkedIn, I see where people will tag a company, tag a boss, and say, this person's a monster. And if they've got specifics, if they've got proof, there's not a whole lot that that company can do. It's not liable if it's actually true.

Clinton Henry: Right.

Kimberly Williams: So we're really entering into, I think a great age of accountability.

Clinton Henry: Oh. It's exciting. All right, well, I feel a little better now. Thank you. We started off dark, but I got it. Lifted me back up Kim. Thank you. So Kim, I'm really impressed by the work you're doing. I'm grateful for the information you've imparted and really appreciative for the time. So thanks so much for joining us today.

Kimberly Williams: Yeah. Happy to be here.